Question for You: Foodies Especially

23 06 2009

I really value you guys’ opinion, and love that even though we are are healthy-minded individuals, we have differeing opinions when it comes to things in the health world.

I asked you guys your thoughts on Oprah and her weight battles, and said I would use your quotes if I thought they fit, which some of your’s did. I turned in the article a few days ago, have no idea when it will be posted, but wanted to let you know who I chose:

Dori
Gemfit
A- KitchenKubicle
Allison K

I’ll let you know when the article is posted, so you can link to it (wink*wink*) You are linked in the article, along with your comments, as well. Thanks for your input.

I like being able to bounce ideas off of you, so here’s one of the topics for an upcoming article and would love to do the same thing: have you guys respond and use the quotes i like.

Here’s my caveat: this is a discussion style post, a discussion about what most of you spend a lot of your time doing. I’m not knocking it, I just want to open up the dicussion, and hopefully learn a little about what either makes you guys tick, or what others that don’t do it’s reaction to it is. You can answer any or all of the questions I pose below, or you can just ramble on the subject. I like rambling.


Here goes:

Why do you food blog? What do you get out of it? Is it more for you or for your readers? For those that blog, realistically, how much time do you spend on your blog everyday (emails, comments, pictures, posting, etc.) Are you actively trying to lose weight? Do you think it is responsible to (if applicable) give advice on nutrition if you have no background in it (even the, “this is what works for me” type info.) Does your family know about it? Are you embarrassed when people find your blog? Do you think its healthy to spend so much time consumed with food?

NOTE: when I speak of food blogs, I speak of the blogs where people post everything they eat, day in and day out, either with one huge post or little tiny posts throughout the day. Not random recipes, or not specialty blogs that share food ideas for those with allergies (like gluten-free blogs). Just regualr blogs that post everything that enters their mouth.

Alright, folks, discuss away. If you dont want me to use your comment, just say so in your comment and I wont use it in the article- but i still invite you to discuss!

If you have a fitness question you would like me to answer, please email at kelly@everygymsnightmare.com

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25 responses to “Question for You: Foodies Especially”

23 06 2009
Dori (10:23:32) :

Thanks for using my quote! Can’t wait to see the article, even if it’s edited out. :)

I don’t write a “food blog”, although I certainly do post about food when I can. I do, however, read a few food blogs every day. My boyfriend can’t stand it. He strongly believes that anyone who takes pictures of everything they eat has an eating disorder and other serious issues with food. I don’t think it is so cut and dry though. I think everyone has their own reasons and while for some it might be an expression of an ED, for others it is a way to inspire people onto living a healthy lifestyle by showing them how easy and delicious it could be.

Some bloggers I’ve read do have food issues, and I tend to stay away from those. I prefer food blogs that promote healthy eating, exercise and the occasional (or frequent!) sugary treat. I could never take pictures of everything I eat, but I must say I am happy that there are people who do.

23 06 2009
Rosalie (11:01:05) :

Kelly,

This is one of my favorite discussions, and a topic I think about a lot. As anyone with an eating disorder can attest, being occupied with food is a result of restriction. When I was going through an eating disorder, it was soothing to read menus, read recipes, analyze and sum up nutritional information for recipes. Reading about food/looking at photos of food was a fascinating activity when I was really, really hungry. What would prompt someone to start a food blog? What would prompt someone to read a food blog? When I asked my friends (no ED), most of them thought such track-food-person-eats blogs would be boring to read, because for them, they just eat until they’re done and aren’t concerned with what others are eating. This doesn’t mean they don’t eat healthily — they do, but moreover, they treat eating like sleeping or drinking (water) or breathing: something that doesn’t require much forethought or reflection, and something that would be pointless to document. I admit that if it weren’t for my ED, I probably would never have started reading food blogs.

Speaking as someone who is fully recovered, I still keep up with blogs that track food (I mostly lurk, though!) and in my opinion, some bloggers seem to eat fairly restrictively. On the whole, I see the same foods circle around the healthy food blogosphere. Barney butter, coconut milk, green monsters, light laughing cow, crack wraps. Flat out wraps, ezekiel english muffins, apples with PB. Oatmeal for breakfast. Salads with the dressing on the side for lunch. Workout summaries, heart rate monitor summaries. month-long challenges. It’s almost predictable. Currently, I find myself enjoying the food blogs that are more culinary based, rather than the ones that simply track food, such as Seriousfood, smittenkitchen, Orangette. etc!

Another thing that always strikes me is that the majority of food bloggers are of a certain demographic: teens to late 20s, female, white, middle-class (or so I assume). This is probably also the group with the highest rate of Eating disorders, body dissatisfaction, etc. Maybe it’s just a coincidence, maybe not. I am not saying that all food bloggers have problems in these areas — certainly no!!! I have been reading food blogs for a very long time and have seen the relationships that people have built,

I’m also concerned that food blogging has become pawns/agents of the marketing industry. There are contests going on all the time, for products that were given to food bloggers with the hope that bloggers will post positive reviews of the free samples. It’s a certainly great idea on the marketing end. There’s nothing wrong with the system when both sides find gain. This is merely an observation.

I feel like there is a hypocrisy in the food blogging world right now. Most food bloggers seem pretty positive about eating and body image, but they often eat a lot of low-calories, low-fat substitutes, and most exercise moderately to A LOT. I think that it’s hip to promote self-acceptance, body love, etc., but I’m not sure some food bloggers fully accept that message for themselves.

I started my own blog 3-4 days ago, but it’s not a food blog. Nor is it an exercise blog. It’s just a blog, likely to be on topics related to food, exercise, society, gender, psychology, eating disorders, etc. Sometimes I post recipes and food pics and workouts, but only ones that are particularly interesting. It’s a blog for me. And whoever else wants to read it. So it’s not really “for” anybody, I guess, but it serves as a place for me ramble, much like I’m doing now. :P I am not trying to lose weight and I have been spending 30-40 minutes a day either writing a post or reading/commenting on other people’s blogs. My family knows about it and my friends know about it and I am not embarrassed, but I would probably be hesitant to tell my real life friend/strangers if I had a blog tracking everything I ate. I’d feel self-conscious, definitely!

I know a lot of food bloggers will be reading this and I hope I don’t offend them, because that is not my intention at all! My intention was simply to observe :)

Rosalie

23 06 2009
Holly (12:09:19) :

I myself could probably never have a “food blog,” because I eat pretty much the same stuff all the time. :-) But I am really fascinated by them and get really good ideas. Plus, I am just amazed at people who can throw things together and make up something new. It’d take me an hour to do what they do in ten minutes.

As for my opinon of food blogs…I’ve noticed that some of the bloggers tend to restrict - assuming they are only showing what they eat. I know I’m more sensitive to this because of my past ED, but it’s just an observation. Other bloggers, though, really have a great way of eating healthy and then throwing in the occasional treat. I think it can be a slippery slope, but I guess so many things are that way.

23 06 2009
Jen, a priorfatgirl (12:12:43) :

well, I don’t write just specifically about everything I eat but do share a lot of what I eat. I was so excited though for the questions, like Rosalie, I LOVE talking about this!

I blog because this whole healthiness journey is tough! And it’s so important for us to find community and surround ourselves with people who are working towards the same goals. The difficult thing though, is some people who are early in their journey think it’s just about finding the “recipe” or “copying a diet” that someone else does. It’s so hard when people email me and ask me to respond with the exact thing I eat every day and my exact workout routine – I never do. Instead, I email them and give them so much more…reinforcement that they need to figure out what healthy means to them. Most people who have figured it out did it by trial and error (me included). If it were that simple, to just follow what someone else eats & their workout routine, everyone would be skinny. But it’s not. It is so much more emotional then that. It’s so much more about figuring out why a person struggles and really getting to the deep down inside feelings.

And…to circle back, there is the reason why I blog. To share my journey: frustrations, success, excitement and disappointment. To vent and to receive feedback. Feedback both as positive and constructive feedback.

I spend about an hour a day writing up my blog and about 45 minutes reading & commenting on others. I choose not to document everything I eat because I am not an expert and really have no education at all, therefore I would not want someone to copy what I’m doing. Everyone has to figure it out for themselves!

My family, friends and even co-workers know about my blog and I am not embarrassed. Because I know, deep down, I am connecting with so many people on serious feelings & experiences most do not talk about.

Ok, I want to go on forever - thanks Kelly for asking these questions, I love answering them & reading other people’s answers!

23 06 2009
SarahF (12:47:31) :

Kelly,

I’m so glad you’re back. You’re blog always has such interesting content on it.

I don’t have a blog but I started reading blogs about a year and a half ago. At that time I was just starting to get into fitness and healthy eating. I had also just started an office job and I ended up searching websites to try and find out how many calories I should be eating in a day. I can’t remember where I found it, but I found one website that told me I should be eating 1400 calories a day if I was living a sedentary lifestyle (which I’m 22 years old and 5′11 at 140 pounds, so this was obviously too few calories). I tried to follow this for about 2 weeks before I got tired of constantly being hungry.

This is when I found food blogs and discovered a whole other way of living. I had never thought to try many of the foods these blogs were advocating- quinoa, couscous, canned pumpkin (in things besides pumpkin pie). However, I soon started these food blogs multiple times a day-and started to feel bad about myself if I ate a cookie, or a piece of cake. The women in these blogs weren’t eating sweets so I shouldn’t be either. I also looked at their exercise routines and felt bad about my own exercise regiment. While they were exercising 5-6 times a week, I was only going 3-4 times.

Last September I stopped reading food blogs and felt a great sense of freedom. By no longer comparing myself to this “ideal model” I was able to appreciate my own efforts at eating healthy and exercising. Sure, I don’t eat perfect. Sometimes I’ll sit on my couch and eat 2 ice cream sandwiches….but other days I’ll eat a salad for lunch and go for a 10 km run after work. It’s all about balance and I think that these blogs can create unrealistic expectations for people who want to emulate the writers.

I really hope some people who write blogs comment about it because I’d love to hear how their lives are effected.

Thanks for the great post!

23 06 2009
Ashley (13:03:10) :

I wouldn’t consider my blog to be a “food” blog - it’s more of a healthy living/eating/moving more/Crohn’s/gluten free sorta place (how’s that for niche??) I started my blog as a place for my Weight Watchers members to go and connect with me throughout the week. I wanted a way to connect with them between our meetings (once a week) and also for them to get to see more about my journey and what I do to maintain my weight. I love the connections that I’ve made through my blog - with both Weight Watchers people as well as other non-WW people and bloggers.

I spend between 15 to 90 minutes on my blog each day. Usually on the weekends I spend closer to 90 minutes getting posts and pictures ready for the week.

My friends and family know about my blog. My dad even reads it! I guess I don’t really count (because I don’t post every meal or even close!) but for me, thinking and writing about food is not unhealthy. Taking pictures of meals has actually helped me in a positive way, as it has encouraged me to take my time and enjoy my meals! I have a busy life and find that sometimes I rush my eating and taking pictures has caused me to slow down.

The blog world has opened up huge possibilities for me and has provided me with lots of inspiration and motivation. I agree with one of the previous commenters who said a lot of blogs have much of the same content on them, and lately I’ve been purging blogs on my google reader. I have a few different categories of blogs that I read and each are useful in their own way. The ones that get repetitive or I don’t relate to, I delete!!

23 06 2009
Jess (13:47:19) :

I read food blogs, but just a few that list everything that they eat. Most blogs of that kind either bore or scare me, but I’ve gotten a few good recipe or product ideas from some of the good ones that I still read.

Thank you for asking this question. I’ll be reading the comments.

23 06 2009
Amy (14:14:29) :

I read several food blogs, because many running or fitness blogs are also food blogs, too. But honestly, I read them for the other content, and not what they eat. Not because I don’t secretly envy that they can eat THAT healthy all the time, but that they eat the same things! Oatmeal, green smoothies, almond butter, salads, the tiniest sliver of chocolate for dessert….these things are great, but don’t offer me anything.

But I can see how people who have food blogs use their blog as a motivating tool. I do the same, just on a different topic. A food blogger would probably be bored to tears reading about my workouts. With any blog, exercise or food-related, as long as the person is being healthy, honest and not obsessive but instead passionate, then I say that’s great.

23 06 2009
BIO (14:53:04) :

I’m like Dori who specializes in food blogging with interesting posts only, not a blow-by-blow account the feeding process. For that matter, I do it (blogging about what I eat) because it’s delightful to share the unique delicacies that I get to sample every now and then, especially to people who are not of the same culture and race that I am.

23 06 2009
Fattygetsfit (16:34:00) :

I started my blog 2.5 years ago to humiliate myself into getting healthy and losing weight. I do Weight Watchers and I found that most of my meeting contemporaries are women 40+ who I cannot really relate to aside from the whole being chubby thing. I had lost weight, gained it back and then some and I initially did it so my friends could cheer me on. My bestfriend’s older sister’s bestfriend was part of this whole healthy blogosphere thing and she found me, which lead to other people “finding” me. I stalk a few blogs, look at the posts I get from others like me and update my feelings/struggle with losing weight the sloooowww and steady way.

Personally, I have developed ED tendencies along the way. I had, until recently, fell way off the WW wagon and binge ate, sometimes purging, and feeling horrible about myself. I gained back 15 lbs in the last year and I was very out of control over it all. Honestly, I am obsessed with food, eating, what I’m going to eat next and all that jazz. I am doing better, gaining self confidence back and losing weight again.

Nowadays, I only share my feelings and update on my life. I never try to give advice and hope that somewhere out there are other people who can identify with my stuff and commiserate.

24 06 2009
Elina (06:02:03) :

I started my blog because I was inspired by other food blogs to get more creative with cooking. Actually before I was reading food blogs, I didn’t even know I’d like cooking. Yes I cooked, but it was more like using bottled marinade for chicken, Uncle Ben’s rice and steamed veggies and calling it dinner. Oh and I was the queen of salads. Love salads! But anyways, that food was never too exciting so for a better/delicious meal, my husband (fiance at the time) would go out to eat. This kind of undid all of our hard work of losing weight, slowly but surely. So…. after reading food blogs for a while and learning how to cook (or at least trying) I decided to start my own. It started out as private blogging that I only shared with my friends on Sparkpeople.com (where I counted calories and led a weight loss team), then I kind of told my sister (I was embarassed at first but then was excited that she actually read it and started to cook herself). Then the platform of sparkpeople got to restrictive (you could only do 1 picture/post) so I decide to try a real blog. From there I got a few readers, and then slowly started to tell my friends and eventually family. Basically I was cooking a lot and wanted to share it with the world. I was hoping it would help others (mostly people I know in real life, who all want to be healthy but have no idea how to do it or think that healthy=bland and boring) become more excited about healthy food and will give them ideas for their own cooking at home. I was also hoping it would help my dad lose weight. I don’t know if it did, but he actually really loves the blog and told everyone and their mom about it the day I sent him the link (it took me a long time to tell him). What else? Oh yeah, I am trying to lose weight and I often wonder what my blog brings to the world. I know I’ve motivated a few friends (and my sister) and actually my dad’s co-worker whom he sent a link to said it motivated her to lose her last 10 lbs (our of 50 or so). I probably spend a few hours a day on it. I don’t count, but it does take longer than I always think it does. I sit down to write a post, and then my evening is gone. So I slow down sometimes. Did I get everything? Haha. Let me know if you have any other questions! :)

24 06 2009
Elina (06:16:18) :

Oh and I think posting about everything I eat puts things in perspective. I have many treats throughout the day, but if you see the whole picture, you know it’s balanced. It works the other way too. If you only see my salad for lunch, you may assume that’s all I eat, and that’s obviously not true. That’s why I like this kind of format in general. I don’t have an eating disorder as many commenters here may suggest. And I definitely don’t want others to replicate exactly what I eat every day. Every snack and meal, I think, provides ideas ,and that’s what they’re there for - ideas. I am still motivated by other food blogs, and my goal is to motivate a few people myself :D

24 06 2009
Allison K. (07:32:54) :

Thanks for using my quote Kelly! I can’t wait to see it in the article.

I started my blog after a few “Big Name” food blogs started getting popular. I did it because, and I’m not ashamed to admit this, I wanted to be cool too! I tried the whole food blog thing, in conjunction with my decision to make healthier lifestyle choices, but quickly found that food blogging just isn’t for me.
As a former binger, and someone who had issues with being honest to others about how much I was eating I found that food blogging brought alot of stress up for me, as I strove to be “as good as” other sucessful bloggers. So, I quit “food blogging” and just have my personal blog to talk about my personal life, me belief in the Health At Every Size movement, my struggles with healy choices and fitness.
I don’t spend tons of time on it, as it isn’t my “job” as it is for some other food bloggers.

I also agree with Rosalie that food blogs have become a sort of marketing “pawn” for various companies. I go back and forth between being sick of seeing the same product on the same 6 blogs, and being jealous that companies won’t send me free stuff!

24 06 2009
Sagan (09:00:25) :

Great discussion!

Mine isn’t a foodie blog, of course, but I tend to spend A LOT of time blogging. Mostly because I can do it at work so that’s just useful. I think in some respects I spend far too much time thinking about food, and that’s not necessarily a good thing. As far as nutrition advice goes, I think it’s okay to offer that kind of info, ESPECIALLY if its of the “this is what works for me” sort. After all, blogs are all about sharing ideas and opinions!

24 06 2009
kristi summer (09:30:40) :

I don’t food blog. I spend a few hours a week blogging…wish I had more time to post then I do. Probably only write a new post every 4-5 days. Life takes over. Glad your back.

24 06 2009
Aaron (09:42:43) :

What an interesting discussion!

I have been reading food blogs for almost a year and I just LOVE them! I have never had an eating disorder, but I have struggled with weight off and on throughout my life. When I discovered food blogs I found it extremely helpful to me because it was something I could relate to. The food blogs that I enjoy and relate to our girls my age (I’m 25) who have had a small weight gain (10-30 lbs) and revamped their lifestyle to achieve a happy weight. I love that there is a resource out there for these “small” weight gains because most of the media tackles people losing HUNDREDS of pounds (ie. The Biggest Loser) and it is just so hard to relate to people who are on the extreme end of the spectrum. For me, I never compare myself to those who blog but I love to read how they are able to achieve a healthy weight through smart eating and plenty of exercise.

My best friend and I have both been huge fans of food blogs and have learned so much that we decided to begin our own blog. We started our blog about two weeks ago and both love sharing our ideas with friends, family, and anyone else who cares to read. By having your own blog, not only does it allow me to share with others but it serves as a motivation for me to continue living healthy and being creative in the kitchen. By no means do I EVER offer nutritional advice and I believe that doing so without any kind of training is unappropriate. However, the “what works for me” version I think is completely acceptable! You can never shadow a blogger and eat just as they do, but if you can come across an idea or too that you would think work in your lifestyle then what’s the harm? That is exactly what I did as a reader!

24 06 2009
chandra (10:54:46) :

I started my blog to use it as a food/exercise journal to help me lose weight. I’m awful about keeping paper jounrals, and I’m on the computer the majority of my day anyway, so it was easier for me that way. I also had some friends who were trying to get healthier so I kind of hoped it would help inspire them to eat better. Honestly, when I started my blog I didn’t think I’d last long before I got bored.

My blog quickly became not only my food/fitness journal, but also kind of a life journal. Besides showing what I ate and my workouts, I share my random thoughts, pictures of things I did over the weekend (including things like tailgating, parties, pool lounging, vacations). I admit to chugging beers, eating cake, fried foods, whatever. I’m human, thats what we do, isn’t it? It’s always been hard for me to feel like a “healthy blogger” because of those things sometimes, but we all have our own idea of what healthy is. For me health is balance, which is what I like to think I have.

As I started losing weight I found a lot of support through my blog. I’d blog about my weightloss, being able to lift heavier weights, run faster than before, training for/completeing races, etc… I had numerous people congratulating me and cheering me on along the way. It wasn’t just about the food for me - yes, it was nice to be able to look back and think “hey, that was good, I should make that again!” - but for me my blog has been more about having support along my journey. Even if it is support from strangers, it still motivating to have, just like strangers cheering on the sidelines at a race - a smile and a high five always give me a boost!

I also receive a lot of emails from people thanking me for giving an example of being a young, single, 20-something who was able to lose the college weight, learn to love exercise, yet still have fun and not sacrifice my social life. Getting emails like that was strange at first, but I do think my way of “healthy” is a lot of fun, so I’m glad I can share it and show people that getting/being healthy isn’t about being uptight and restrictive.

I haven’t been posting all of my food (or even much of it) for awhile now. I stopped at first because I didn’t have the time/ability due to work, and now it’s more because I realize my eating is kind of boring. I eat a lot of the same things from day to day. If I make something AMAZING or find a new product I love, I’ll share it on my blog. But nowadays my blog is more just to record my life, thoughts, activities, my workouts (I’m still keeping track of them since I’m attempting marathon training now!), and once in awhile share a few tips and tricks I’ve learned.

With my new found love of exercise and my personal training certification, I’d love to turn my blog into more fitness related, kind of like you, giving advice and whatnot, but right now I’m good just talking about myself and answering random questions when I have time. :-)

I’m sure I’m forgetting something I wanted to say, but this is getting long so I’ll stop. I’ll come back again if I think of more. :-) Great question, Kelly!

27 06 2009
How I met my Future Husband « Simply Fabulous (04:45:43) :

[…] over at Every Gym’s Nightmare had an awesome conversation going on about food blogging.  I really enjoyed reading […]

27 06 2009
caitlin (09:01:23) :

obvi, i love blogging! i just think it’s important not to generalize and put all food blogs into the same box. i have too much to say on the subject so let’s just end it there.

i’m glad EGN is back!!

28 06 2009
Meghan (17:13:30) :

I consider my blog a foodie blog rather than a food blog. There is no way I would have time or would want to write about or photograph everything that passes my lips, but I can see where it is helpful for others!
I spend about an hour a day blogging and commenting on others. My blogging is for me and my readers - I LOVE food, wine, and travel and love sharing all of the great experiences I have had. I also love writing and reliving the experiences I have had through my blog.

28 06 2009
Holly (The Healthy Everythingtarian) (18:52:36) :

gosh, what a super fabulous topic. you know, i started my own food blog this past april after having read them for several months. there are many types of food blogs out there, so it is hard to generalize, but i guess the reason i started one is because i learned a lot from them.

i found new products, new recipes, a new way of thinking about food - seeing how different people ate opened me up to a whole new world to find out how i wanted to eat. blogging can get obsessive - that includes foods, attitudes, comments. however, i try to keep it in perspective the best i can. the blog is not my life - its an outlet for me to express my love of healthy, yummy food and cooking, not to mention exercise and a more whole living approach.

it’s definitely a slippery slope, but i think the benefits of what i have gotten out of blogging have outweighed the rest of it. will i blog forever? NO. but for now, its something i enjoy doing, and i have actually really found a healthy, peaceful balance between me and food - something i did not have for the first 23 years of my life.

also, as i have said from the beginning, if i can help at least one person lead a healthier, happier life through my blog, it will have been worth it!

29 06 2009
RunToFinish (13:41:53) :

I like what elina said, reading food blogs really opened me up to cooking. I like to see different types of food and get ideas for what might be a new healthy throw together meal.

I do blog about new products and I know some folks don’t care for that, but others do and I love reading about new products. I like for others to be the guinea pigs!

2 07 2009
julie (22:25:12) :

I think they’re boring, though there have definitely been times in my life where I would have read, commented, participated, probably made my own about every morsel I ate. Now I’m only interested in food as it intersects chemistry (my fave), ecology or politics. As far as dieting goes, I’m far more interested in the psychology of it all, not lists nor pictures of food/exercise

7 07 2009
ttfn300 (19:49:38) :

i guess i dont’ fall into that category as I don’t post everything i eat… but even trying to come up with new, creative ideas i get stressed and think about food all the time… which i think can be unhealthy if you’re not in the right frame of mind

15 07 2009
Liz (14:33:24) :

This is an interesting discussion. I started reading food blogs, the ones that list everything a person eats day in and day out about a year ago. At first it was something I would just check every now and then, but gradually it turned into specific sites I would check every day, sometimes even multiple times.

Of course, there’s been the benefits to reading them. I’ve tried new foods, made a few good recipes and found a love for yoga. But - it’s starting to get where the bad is out weighing the good.

It’s not affecting my eating, just sometimes my mood. Like others have mentioned, but what if I want to go to Wendy’s an order a bacon cheeseburger. Or how about a giant cheese steak? Granted, these aren’t things I eat every day, but every now and then, come on, it’s not going to hurt.

And the calorie counting/adding up how many calories burned during a workout. I went from someone who enjoyed working out, to someone who was super concerned with how much I was burning. I don’t know about other people, but if I’m not working out strictly because it makes me feel good and is healthy, well then I simply won’t do it.

And lastly, it’s getting boring. The same thing, day in and day out.

I miss learning new things and laughing. If food blogs are a person’s thing, I get it. I was there. But no more for me. I’m not going to judge myself against some person I’m probably never going to meet.

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